Since I have asked now, I think, 2 different times for your permission to ask you questions about your ministry, It bothered you, in the first place, that I was on your list. For when I asked to join your list, you gave me the third degree. You asked me if there was going to be a problem with Chris. When I asked you what he said, you never answered me on that. You Mike, had already bought his slander. Living Water ministries has been around for over 24 years.
You don't need to ask for permission to question me. It is your right to ask and it is also my right to respond or not respond as I see fit. I am still waiting for you to ask your questions. I don't bite.
Dave, and so far there is no response and because now, since your note, two current or former supporters of your ministry have gained access here, I am now compelled to act.
Jan Hilton had been a member for some months on your site, and had made several posts. Dan Cooper had been a member on your list for over a week. When Dan showed a desire to witness to the blessing of the oil from his heart, you would have none of it. He asked you directly, if he could post his testimony on your site. You said that it was not the testimonies that bothered you but it was the way you guys went about it. When Dan asked you why? You said, "You know why." Your mode of operation is all to familiar. What sin did me and my friends from LW commit? What did we do wrong? Please tell us. We are waiting to hear from you.
I will first state my positions and then offer a last chance to you Dave, to make clear, right here, in the open, your ministry by answering questions I have as well as questions others have.
Mike you never stated your position. You never allowed or gave me the chance to respond to anything. Your ultimatum of 48 hours you yourself did not keep. For this behavior of yours and those on your list is both Stewartesque and Cobuesque of you. You kicked me off of your site before noon the same night you posted your letter. My ministry is wide open and there is nothing to hide. LW does not need your list or any other list to exist. We were around before you and all of these COBU sites popped up. You and the others are all afraid of me and want nothing to do with me and that does not bother me.
I want to state as clearly as I can my impressions of LW thus far and also restate my role here as moderator for those who may be wondering why I am willing and able to take any action here.
Mike, the only action you can take is to unfairly throw me off of your list, which I don't care a thing about. I don't care if you are the moderator or not. Your list never had any posted rules until Tod insisted that you state some. This came about based on the way Chris had behaved, shamefully, and abused other brothers and sisters on your list, which you seemed unwilling to address until Chris started abusing you--and then you took action. Then later you brought him back, knowing what type of person he is. You also erased posts of members without their permission. So, you my brother have not been a consistent moderator. One of the things that you showed is that you don't have faith in the Lord Jesus and what he stood for. What you do to the least of these, said Jesus, you do to me. Jesus would at least try to find out what is going on, and he would not be so incensed that he caters to a few of his friends so that they can feel better.
My name is Michael James Montoya. I was born of the Spirit, June 30th 1975.
If you are born of the spirit Michael James Montoya, then act as though you are born of the spirit.
My family and I were led to Jesus by members of the Forever Family. I moved into COBU in 1980 and moved out in 1984. In 1998 I started a web page specifically to get ex-members in touch with each other. Soon after the web page I signed up for the OneList discussions. Then later I joined Yahoogroups and the list you are on right now is the very same. I am the list owner and moderator.
Several members on your list said that it is your list and you can do whatever you want. That is not true because you have to answer to the members who are on this list.
It has been my intention, and most of my actions bear this out, that I have endeavored to manage this list with the hope that ex-members will find the ones they knew in the group and by talking things out and praying for one another brethren in Christ can heal from the damage they incurred in the cobu. Because this list is for ex-members, it means that the ex-member who is a Christian right now and the ex-member who is not a christian right now are both welcome here.
Would that your list was a place where ex-members from COBU could pray and talk things out and pray for one another. But your list is far from this. How are brothers and sisters going to heal from the mess of COBU and Stewart Tanner Traill unless they admit that the place they came from was a mess and a godless society.
On your list Mike, here are some of the things that have gone on, while you've been the owner and operator and manager. When Tom P was being verbally abused by Chris and the others, you and those on your list did and said nothing about this. Where were you when Chris was insulting Carol and Ave and countless others on your list. You sat there and did nothing because you felt that it was his right to behave so wickedly.
There are rules on this list. These rules have evolved over time as circumstances have arisen which were unforseen and by the amount of personal email I have received, some not very nice, I have had to step in and take action. I have had to expel some who could not abide the rules of this forum. I have had to warn some who knowingly or unknowingly have made misteps.
Mike, why all of the pageantry? I have never insulted anyone, and I have never abused anyone. There is no need to act like one who does not know God. Your partiality reeks loud and clear. Was not Dave, Tod, Dan, and Jan former members of COBU?
There are over 130 members on this list and there is the same amount over at Cobu Survivors. There have been other lists and I even started a second list so that arguers could have a place to really have it out but the Sharpen list was hardly used. Everyone here wanted to stay here and so it was necessary to make rules so that discussions ranging from politics to church doctrine to our time under ST all could be hashed out here and that our Lord would be pleased by our love for one another.
Stewart Traill never showed love for us and we did not love one another in, and we don't love each other out.
Whether you like me being the moderator or not or the owner of this list or not, I am for now and I believe that I am responsible to our Father to tend this list for the good of the brethren here. Having said this, you will now understand why I am concerned by some of the things Tod has said and not said here. I have been bothered by LW as it has been presented by Tod and sometimes by Dave.
Why are you concerned about LW posting on your list the blessing of the oil? Yes I stand by this blessing that the Lord Jesus Christ entrusted to me, to give to any one from the church of our youth who is hurting from the abuse that was inflicted upon them by Traill and his system. This is a way of escape from bondage and slavery. Why are you bothered by LW? What wrong have we done to you?
There are some truths that need to be stated here before I continue. I am a Christian. Herman Weiss is a Christian. Nancy Coogan is a Christian.Tod Burros is a Christian. Dave Simmons is a Christian. Steve Saxton is a Christian. Bob San Pascual is a Christian. Dee Dee Rose is a Christian, Dee Jones is a Christian. Chris Blaise is a Christian. Barbara Caban is a Christian.
If You and the ones you listed are Christians,then they should behave like Christians. At least try to follow the bible. Why name some names and not all of the ones who profess faith? My experience has taught me that Faith and Christianity mean different things to various people. The Bible says that not all have faith, just as our former mentor did not have faith. He did not walk in faith. Stew trusted in his own corrupt mind and insight, which is worldly and not of God.
If I didn't name you forgive me. The Lord knows you. Your name is written in heaven.
There is a majority of Christians here, who walk in the light as He is in the light, and so we have fellowship with one another.
What does walking in the light mean to you and the ones on your list? I am not talking about the falsehood that Stew taught.
I am not questioning what the Lord Jesus has begun in the ones I have mentioned.
But it's ok to question Dave Simmons and expel him and some of his members, for posting what his ministry is and does.
Now, to your ministry Dave. Why don't you respond?
You never gave me a chance to, and you did not want me to respond. All you had to do is write to me privately and we could have solved this in a civil manner. I forgot Stevie Boy Wonder did not teach you any better way than that. You have learned your training well. There is no healing and comfort in any of these lists or groups that have cropped up over the years. These lists are all alike, they are filled with the teachings and vile doings and habits of Stewart Traill. Many check out but they do not leave. Mike, your actions and antics bear witness to this fact.
And Tod, why do you pick and choose where and when and who you show this ministry to? Dave writes this email about what LW is about. Okay fine. I have questions. Now we get into the whole thing we already got into.
Yes Mike, my ministry is all about oil and prayer, especially to those who are in the COBU and those from it who are out. It is for those who wish to be blessed. We have been cursed too many years by Steve. I say, Come and be blessed and come and get immediate relief.
You and Dave say you have a ministry for ex-cobu members. Like I said....That means us! You are on one of the largest gatherings on line of ex-members.
My ministry is for those who feel that they need it. For those who are hurting, and see that there is no way to get free from his grip. Yes my ministry is for COBU people. But like in the bible, many people choose not to accept a way of escape. We are not interested in bickering and debating with ones who have no interest in this blessing. There are no strings attached or hidden agendas. I desire to see all free from the grip of Stewart Traill.
Whether you have been honest about your intentions here or not, the impression is still questionable.
You found my post offensive, and that is unfortunate.
Neil Pendry has his little group. He is steeped in heresy and is not welcome here. Chris Blaise when he had the chance would make his appeal for those here to join him over on his list, which was weird because this is not a competition and I am not a super center leader and neither is he and so racking up the numbers was never an issue at least for me. Chris' boast of number of messages is to his shame and misunderstanding of what this list is and what his list is. And now, as much as you Tod say that you are not pushing your ministry and not trying to bring it up and Dave hardly appears on this list and gosh LW is not trying to push their thing.....the result of your non-pushing, non-selling is that you are now here and using this list as a means to get your ministry presented. Now is this wrong? Well, no, if you were open about it. You have not been forthright. Dave has not been either.
Neil and his group suffer from the same problem as many of the ones who checked out but never left. Many of the ones who leave are so filled with pain that they try all sorts of hurtful things. Dave Simmons and LW are not steeped in heresy, but I have been given this oiling commission and I will not turn from it. It has become my passion. I am not interested in followers or recruits; I just want to see people set free from this ungrateful and thankless, abusive false teacher, who is steeped in violent corruption. Chris and Neal have nothing to do with me and what I stand for. I know what Chris is and he does not bother me. You and all of the ones on these lists must do what is on your hearts. That is the Bible 101. Chris learned from STT very well: "Get me if you can"
Tod was on your list for over seven years and he never did any of the things that many of the others did, who could not respect or treat one another with honor. I guess that meant nothing to you. I have learned not to expect much from former members of the Church of Stewart Traill. To the charge of not being honest, I say NOT GUILTY. To the charge of not being forthright, NOT GUILTY.
I have questions, others have questions.
I am still waiting for you Mike, and the others, to ask your questions. If you have questions, I have answers.
Not only is it normal, it is scriptural and our duty as Christians to test everything.
There was nothing normal about the COBU experience and Stewart Tanner Traill. It is normal for a person that has questions to raise them. If you ask no questions, you get no answers. What is scriptural? Our duty as Christians in Christ is first to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and might. Second to love our neighbor as ourselves. Traill never taught his sheep how to test, based on the Bible. What then is a good and fair test? The way testing was done in the Church of untended hearts was totally wrong and misguided. Taking a machete or a sledge hammer is not a fair and honest test. Or, Let me stab it with my knife a few times to see if it is from God. In order to test something you must be willing to try it out, to see what it is made of, or ask, Will this work?
Have you Tod, or you Dave brought your ministry to our attention or anyone's attention to see whether or not you were running in vain or laboring in vain? If you come here talking about your ministry to ex-members, are you seeking ordination or approval or certification or advice?
No my brother, we are not seeking ordination, approval, certification, or advice. You and your list have nothing I desire. If I were hungry, I would not tell you.
Don't tell me, "we didn't bring up our ministry, others did" sorry....you did bring up your testimony and you have alluded to your ministry enough that even without Chris' charges we would have known about it.
Many have known about our ministry for years. At the 2007 reunion I made an announcement about oil and prayer. No we are not seeking advice, ordination, or certification from your sites. Heck, you would not give that to me anyway. You and Chris and Neil are one and the same. You all have nothing I desire or need. No, I am not running in vain or laboring in vain. LW is not going anywhere and we intend to be around a long time, God willing. I am glad that you acknowledged that Chris did get to you and the rest on your list. It looks like your list bought all of his nonsense. And you allowed this kind of slander to go on on your watch.
What I am asking for is walking in the Light.
My post was very clear and to the point. If you don't need it or desire it, I have no problem with that. You had known about this ministry for sometime. I don't want you to join and I don't want you to do anything at all. I am not interested in any of you trusting me at all. Remember, Stewart Traill taught us not to trust anybody, saved or unsaved. My ministry is not based on whether ones on your list accept or reject it. You did a good job of that before you posted your letter. The testimonies stand alone. The witness of two is true, that is what the Bible teaches me. I got news for you Mike: there is no difference between those who are in and those who are out. They check out but they do not leave. Your heart is still with your former mentor. For those who do not get free from his grip are still his prisoners. Free yourselves from this perverse and crooked generation, that is corrupt through deceitful lusts.
You and Dave have a ministry. fine. Now what? What do you want any of us to do about it? Do you want us to join? Do you want us to spread the word about it? What are you asking anyone here to do? If you cannot be clear on this minor point then how can you expect anyone here to trust you further? Dave, if you are opening your ministry up to brethren here, then field questions here about your ministry. If you don't care that some here have questions and you don't intend to answer anyone here then do not offer your ministry. I for one am not going to stand here and have you or Tod or anyone come on this list and offer some ministry which has born no scrutiny. Testimonials from the few who have been blessed by your work does not meet the test. Call up current COBU and ask them if they are being fed or blessed by ST....you can get at least 50 testimonials of how God is using ST.
So I now extend for a 3rd or 4th time. Dave Simmons, will you in the next couple of days, field some questions from brethren here in order to make clear that your ministry is of God?
Mike, you are so funny. You kicked me and my friends off in less than six hours. So much for answering questions from brothers and sisters. You did not want to engage in a conversation with me. This is a sign of one who is filled with much fear, doubt, and mistrust. How would you and your list know if my ministry is from God or not? You and your list and the other lists are all afraid of me, and you should not be. I made myself very clear. What don?t you get? Please tell me.
If you are unwilling then I will make the arrangements for you and Tod not to be here in the capacity of ministers. Because this is how you see yourselves, but you have not behaved as ones who have met the test, then I am responsible deny your access here.
The above statements make no sense. We were not going to stay on your list anyway. How could you test when you do not know what a proper test is? My behavior on this list has been above reproach. So you wanted to get rid of me for a long time, and my post gave you the nerve to do it. It was a good thing that I was able to copy this letter, before You denied me access. What a big man you are, not.
I will not tolerate heresy here and I will not tolerate false teaching or false shepherds.
Here are some of the things that you do tolerate on your list Mike: it is ok for atheists to hang out on your list; it is ok for racists to be on your list; it's alright for misogynists to be on your list; it's cool to have people slander and abuse each other on your list; and its ok for people to have hate-filled speech on your list; and finally it is ok to insult one another on your list.
But God forbid if Dave Simmons should post a prophecy on your list, because "it is not welcomed here, it is not appropriate here, it does not belong here. Dave Simmons should not post his blessing of the oil here, we are going to kick him off for that, Praise God. We will tolerate anything but Dave Simmons and his ministry."
If you are not guilty then you have nothing to fear,
NOT GUILTY IN WORD, MICHAEL JAMES MONTOYA
NOT GUILTY IN DEED, MICHAEL JAMES MONTOYA
NOT GUILTY IN TRUTH, MICHAEL JAMES MONTOYA
if you are zealous for what's right.
What I have written I have written.
If you have erred then there are brethren here who have been given wisdom by God and are trained in the scriptures to correct you with gentleness.
I have not erred, and the brothers and sisters who you say have wisdom, let them come forth and not be afraid to have a civil conversation with me. If they are trained in the Bible then they could easily see that pouring oil on the head is all over the Bible, oil is nothing new. I am not going to bore you with details, since you and your list are all enlightened.
If you both were here simply to fellowship or talk then there would not be an issue. Because your ministry and some of your supporters are now here, I will not bypass this ultimatum of testing for the sake of a few testimonials.
The witness of two is true. You yourself said that you were flying after you spoke to us in the summer of 2010. The fear of man lays a snare. So what if some of my supporters are on your list. Were we not in cobu as well?
We ex-members have been fooled and burned by a false christ and a false teacher.
If you don't escape his grip you will be fooled yet again and still remain his prisoner. If Stewart Traill is a false teacher and a false Christ: What does that make you? I know what it made me.
I do not want to be responsible for any here being led astray again.
You have no control over the people on your list. You my brother are only responsible for you and your family. Believe me, you will not be led astray by me nor anyone else from LW.
We must test all things.
I challenge you Michael James Montoya and anyone else on your list, and any cobu list, to give my ministry a try. Former cobu members were not taught how to test all things. We were taught that if we destroyed it, it must not be from God. The Bible says, Taste and see that the Lord is good.
If you do not want to be tested I will give you a final email for you to invite this whole list to join you on your own list or web site or call you or write you. By then they will know what you are, either by your response or lack thereof.
Mike Montoya,
No we don't want to be tested by you, for you don't know how to test. You Mike are like the rest of the former members who check out but don't leave. If I were hungry I would not dare ask you. Nor do I seek approval from you. Welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you. We finally put up our website. Cobu people will not know what I am until they inquire of me what I am.
Dave Simmons
Since I have asked now, I think, 2 different times for your permission to ask you questions about your ministry, Dave, and so far there is no response and because now, since your note, two current or former supporters of your ministry have gained access here, I am now compelled to act. I will first state my positions and then offer a last chance to you Dave, to make clear, right here, in the open, your ministry by answering questions I have as well as questions others have.
I want to state as clearly as I can my impressions of LW thus far and also restate my role here as moderator for those who may be wondering why I am willing and able to take any action here.
My name is Michael James Montoya. I was born of the Spirit, June 30th 1975. My family and I were led to Jesus by members of the Forever Family. I moved into cobu in 1980 and moved out in 1984. In 1998 I started a web page specifically to get ex-members in touch with each other. Soon after the web page I signed up for the OneList discussions. Then later I joined Yahoogroups and the list you are on right now is the very same. I am the list owner and moderator. It has been my intention, and most of my actions bear this out, that I have endeavored to manage this list with the hope that ex-members will find the ones they knew in the group and by talking things out and praying for one another brethren in Christ can heal from the damage they incurred in the cobu. Because this list is for ex-members, it means that the ex-member who is a christian right now and the ex-member who is not a christian right now are both welcome here.
There are rules on this list. These rules have evolved over time as circumstances have arisen which were unforseen and by the amount of personal email I have recieved, some not very nice, I have had to step in and take action. I have had to expel some who could not abide the rules of this forum. I have had to warn some who knowingly or unknowingly have made misteps. There are over 130 members on this list and there is the same amount over at Cobu Survivors. There have been other lists and I even started a second list so that arguers could have a place to really have it out but the Sharpen list was hardly used. Everyone here wanted to stay here and so it was necessary to make rules so that discussions ranging from politics to church doctrine to our time under ST all could be hashed out here and that our Lord would be pleased by our love for one another.
Whether you like me being the moderator or not or the owner of this list or not, I am for now and I believe that I am responsible to our Father to tend this list for the good of the brethren here. Having said this, you will now understand why I am concerned by some of the things Tod has said and not said here. I have been bothered by LW as it has been presented by Tod and sometimes by Dave.
There are some truths that need to be stated here before I continue. I am a christian. Herman Weiss is a Christian. Nancy Coogan is a Christian.Tod Burros is a Christian. Dave Simmons is a Christian. Steve Saxton is a Christian. Bob San Pascual is a Christian. Dee Dee Rose is a Christian, Dee Jones is a Christian. Chris Blaise is a Christian. Barbara Caban is a Christian. If I didn't name you forgive me. The Lord knows you. Your name is written in heaven. There is a majority of christians here, who walk in the light as He is in the light, and so we have fellowship with one another. I am not questioning what the Lord Jesus has begun in the ones I have mentioned.
Now, to your ministry Dave. Why don't you respond? And Tod, why do you pick and choose where and when and who you show this ministry to? Dave writes this email about what LW is about. Okay fine. I have questions. Now we get into the whole thing we already got into.
You and Dave say you have a ministry for ex-cobu members. Like I said....That means us! You are on one of the largest gatherings on line of ex-members. Whether you have been honest about your intentions here or not, the impression is still questionable. Neil Pendry has his little group. He is steeped in heresy and is not welcome here. Chris Blaise when he had the chance would make his appeal for those here to join him over on his list, which was wierd because this is not a competition and I am not a super center leader and neither is he and so racking up the numbers was never an issue at least for me. Chris' boast of number of messages is to his shame and misunderstanding of what this list is and what his list is. And now, as much as you Tod say that you are not pushing your ministry and not trying to bring it up and Dave hardly appears on this list and gosh LW is not trying to push their thing.....the result of your non-pushing, non-selling is that you are now here and using this list as a means to get your ministry presented. Now is this wrong? Well, no, if you were open about it. You have not been forthright. Dave has not been either. I have questions, others have questions. Not only is it normal, it is scriptural and our duty as Christians to test everything. Have you Tod, or you Dave brought your ministry to our attention or anyone's attention to see whether or not you were running in vain or laboring in vain? If you come here talking about your ministry to ex-members, are you seeking ordination or approval or certification or advice? Don't tell me, "we didn't bring up our ministry, others did" sorry....you did bring up your testimony and you have alluded to your ministry enough that even without Chris' charges we would have known about it.
What I am asking for is walking in the Light. You and Dave have a ministry. fine. Now what? What do you want any of us to do about it? Do you want us to join? Do you want us to spread the word about it? What are you asking anyone here to do? If you cannot be clear on this minor point then how can you expect anyone here to trust you further? Dave, if you are opening your ministry up to brethren here, then field questions here about your ministry. If you don't care that some here have questions and you don't intend to answer anyone here then do not offer your ministry. I for one am not going to stand here and have you or Tod or anyone come on this list and offer some ministry which has born no scrutiny. Testimonials from the few who have been blessed by your work does not meet the test. Call up current cobu and ask them if they are being fed or blessed by ST....you can get at least 50 testimonials of how God is using ST.
So I now extend for a 3rd or 4th time. Dave Simmons, will you in the next couple of days, field some questions from brethren here in order to make clear that your ministry is of God? If you are unwilling then I will make the arrangements for you and Tod not to be here in the capacity of ministers. Because this is how you see yourselves, but you have not behaved as ones who have met the test, then I am responsible deny your access here. I will not tolerate heresy here and I will not tolerate false teaching or false shepherds. If you are not guilty then you have nothing to fear, if you are zealous for what's right. If you have erred then there are brethren here who have been given wisdom by God and are trained in the scriptures to correct you with gentleness.
If you both were here simply to fellowship or talk then there would not be an issue. Because your ministry and some of your supporters are now here, I will not bypass this ultimatum of testing for the sake of a few testimonials.
We ex-members have been fooled and burned by a false christ and a false teacher. I do not want to be responsible for any here being led astray again. We must test all things. If you do not want to be tested I will give you a final email for you to invite this whole list to join you on your own list or web site or call you or write you. By then they will know what you are, either by your response or lack thereof.
Mike Montoya